Philosophy and Vore: Reformation and Theseus' Ship

[1ring42]

Recently a discussion involved a slight tangent regarding using clones implanted with memories from the prey as a means to survive. This reminds me of the philosophy mind puzzle of Theseus' Ship. Which goes as follows:
Suppose Theseus sails out of Athens on his ship to go trading, now as he goes about his business, sailing in the Aegean and Mediterranean, the ship encounters damage from storms and pirates and general misfortune. This goes on until, through repairs and replacing defective parts, there is none of the original material left. Now is the ship really the same ship.

Now we can tailor that puzzle to a vorish scenario:

Jim is eaten by a pred and digested, Luckily for him he had insurance and was reformed (either via a machine or magic or some combination of the two). But seeing as his original body is now a mixture of nutrients and waste sliding through the pred's guts the question remains. Is Jim really Jim?

[Thatonepred]

Thinking about it, the reformed Jim would remember being digested by the pred, but would that be proof of him being the original? One could easily take the memories and transplant them into a new body.

This also puts all the reformation vore stories in a suitably horrifying light. Even more so with multiple reformations, where the original person could have been dead for years, replaced by clone after clone after delicious clone.

To further this, going back to the ship, if one were to get all the original material together again, which ship is Theseus' Ship? If one were to take all those nutrients and waste and put it on the floor, which Jim is Jim? Or are they both Jim?

[Komodo]

A good and classic question!
To me, and I can imagine a lot of people, the "you" doesn't lie in your body,
but what we consider "soul"; the memories and experiences that creates you
and your individual thoughts / looks on life.
The body gets almost 100% replaced over the course of 20 years anyway, so
why not after being re-created from one's original compounds that's gone
through a digestive process? Large parts will be missing, but we loose and
rebuild parts all the time anyway.
But to answer... no, I don't think old Jimmy-boy would be the same person.
IF we play on that being a person is your Soul, aka unique Memories, Mentality
and Experience, then you are NEVER the same person. You might be for some
time, depending on how you live, but everything you go through or learn will
affect you and alter you slightly. Jim could get digested a thousand times or
never at all during the course of 1 Year, but no matter which road, he'd still
not be the same person as he was a year prior.
For good or for bad? Now THAT is a question for another time...

[Vae]

To further this, going back to the ship, if one were to get all the original material together again, which ship is Theseus' Ship? If one were to take all those nutrients and waste and put it on the floor, which Jim is Jim? Or are they both Jim?

I like to think with the philosophy that "we are more than the sum of our parts."

The remains of the old ship are nothing but things that used to be a ship, and if reconstructed perfectyly I would still sooner call it a new ship that looks like thesus' ship.

The same goes for the clone. Once it came into existence in a world where Jim was no more, it is Jim. A perfect reconstruction of Jim's digested bits (even Alice and with memories) is now the 'new Jim' to me.

[Indighost]

Great discussion question. We need more interesting debates like this on here!

While i have not done much with reformation, i have to say that the reformed person is absolutely Not the same. The original person came to terms with being 100% completely in service and submission to the predator's body. The reformed person was "copied" before that happened and "pasted" after it happened, so he is missing a very key experience.

He may even come to regret the whole thing years later, a totally different attitude than the sacrificial idealist who actually died.

[1ring42]

The original person came to terms with being 100% completely in service and submission to the predator's body. The reformed person was "copied" before that happened and "pasted" after it happened, so he is missing a very key experience.

He may even come to regret the whole thing years later, a totally different attitude than the sacrificial idealist who actually died.

What's to say Jim was a willing prey? Or what's to say his consciousness (or soul if you will) wasn't placed into the reformed body at the moment of death?

[Artemis]

@Indighost: I think you're projecting a lot of things you don't actually know. Like you don't know that they came to terms with anything, or that the experience didn't carry over, or that the prey was willing for that matter. These are things that came out of thin air.

I like to think with the philosophy that "we are more than the sum of our parts."

I like that train of thought, but here's a good question. If we are more than the sum of our parts and all our parts are removed, does anything remain--and is it carried over?

[jaykayeight]

that is one reason why i steppped out of my church as they believe in a resurection on earth. i thought that just being reformed perfectly, with all the braincells and memories stored is actually still just a perfect copy. also why i would be sceptical about beaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WedbVDEwW_A

choose life! especially as prey ^^ try to stay alive!

[Gendor]

"The old girl" as some people call their cars or such is more than just the name of the car and it's parts. It's "My car". Same way like if you've had a long-time friend who all of a sudden doesn't use glasses anymore, they appear strange, as if they aren't the same, therefore "the friend" is obviously whoever you view them as.

And can't help but to comment(Since others are twats enough to bring it up) on that I find reformation a pretty disgusting thing, especially if the prey remembers it and it tears at their souls. It's a pretty fucked up part of the whole vore part.

[Cowrie]

"The old girl" as some people call their cars or such is more than just the name of the car and it's parts. It's "My car". Same way like if you've had a long-time friend who all of a sudden doesn't use glasses anymore, they appear strange, as if they aren't the same, therefore "the friend" is obviously whoever you view them as.

And can't help but to comment(Since others are twats enough to bring it up) on that I find reformation a pretty disgusting thing, especially if the prey remembers it and it tears at their souls. It's a pretty fucked up part of the whole vore part.

Your assessment of reformation seems to be suffering the opposite assumptions from Indighost. Namely, that the prey is unwilling, that it is traumatic by nature, ect.

For me, it depends on the nature of how the reformation works. When it's magic-based, with a soul being a key aspect, I'd say it's the same person. A clone with transplanted memories I'd probably consider different. Of course, I'd probably call the later case a 'backup' rather than reformation...

[1ring42]

Your assessment of reformation seems to be suffering the opposite assumptions from Indighost. Namely, that the prey is unwilling, that it is traumatic by nature, ect.

Interesting what people infer from a situation with no actual details. The only facts given are Jim was eaten and digested and that he was reformed. And already we have people talking about how beautiful and poetic his acceptance was, while others decry the cruelty of his experience and implied PTSD.

A clone with transplanted memories I'd probably consider different. Of course, I'd probably call the later case a 'backup' rather than reformation...

This reminds me of a novel called "Old Man's War" by John Scalzi where they transfer someones mind into a young genetically enhanced body. But anyway what if it was a sci-fi universe in which sentient consciousness was definitively measured and could be transplanted into a reformed body at the instant of death? Would Jim still be Jim?

[Cowrie]

That's a tough one,. For me, sentient consciousness is not identical to soul, because I believe in reincarnation, and specifically that all living things have a soul, that is, the capacity to be reincarnated. For me, it's metaphysical, not quantifiable. So I'd say the answer is still no.

[1ring42]

Well then if reincarnated jim ran into reformed jim which jim would be the real jim. Especially considering reincarnated Jim would have completely different DNA and arguably a different upbringing.

[Cowrie]

My view of it is that true reformation would deny reincarnation. In the sci-fi scenario, though I'd be inclined to say neither.

[1ring42]

Well then what happens to the real Jim?

[Cowrie]

Changed. Part of the subconscious of the reincarnated Jim, but not truly the same. The same way I firmly believe I was a bat-eared fox in a former life. That life has minor influences on the current me, but that specific fox is part of a blended mesh of past lives. But let's not turn this into a thread on my personal, one person religion.

[1ring42]

I like that train of thought, but here's a good question. If we are more than the sum of our parts and all our parts are removed, does anything remain--and is it carried over?

And that of course is the heart of the question. What actually makes Jim, Jim? Or rather if we are more than the sum of our parts, what actually makes us who we are?

[1ring42]

Though the question also applies to UB situations.

If Jim were unbirthed then regressed and reborn, would Jim still be Jim?

[RuffledFerret]

All of that is fine and all, but dig this:
Our bodies are in a never-ending process of exchanging atoms and molecules with the rest of the world. In the same way that our internal organs are constantly replacing their various substances (skin is replaced every 4 weeks, blood vessel linings are replaced every 6 months, and - most appropriately to this thread - our stomach and intestinal linings are renewed every 4 days [while the surface cells of the full digestive process - from mouth to bowels - is replaced every 5 minutes]), the atoms of the universe are forever flowing and passing themselves from organism to object to chemical and back again.
Chances are, each of us contain within ourselves a (very) tiny piece of a prey that fed a once-hungry predator elsewhere. Perhaps that piece is from one of a massive school of krill that was gulped down by a whale, or maybe a field mouse that was chomped upon by a wolf, or even a gazelle that fed a python after it was crushed in its coils. Time isn't even an issue that effects microscopic exchanges; we may have very well shared an atom or two with an apatosaurus or Tarrare!
In conclusion I would like to propose a new question: aren't we all Jim, in some way or another?

(No seriously, the answer to this would depend specifically on what form of reformation Jim went through.)

[Thagrahn]

Philosophy is one of those areas where answers can only be speculated, and never complete become a true answer to the questions.

This does bring about the question of "What is the real Jim?" since it is dependant on defining if the new Jim is or isn't the old Jim.

What is a person beyond the body? What is a soul? What are the true natures of memories? What is it that made Jim Jim in the first place?